Transcript for #bitcoin-dev 2017/11/27

08:12 midnightmagic garit: incorrect. premise wrong. conclusion wrong. Pointless FUD.
08:14 garit And what is right?
08:24 midnightmagic garit: Eliminating the idea that it is a waste from your thoughts to begin with. :-/
08:25 garit What is a waste?
08:25 garit I need to know to what context you are referring to =)
08:26 midnightmagic you were complaining about the expense in terms of energy
08:26 garit Last convo was about mempool flush
08:26 midnightmagic ah
08:27 garit midnightmagic: lets consider visa - tx cost is about 0.1$, btc tx cost is 10$, difference is a waste
08:27 garit (as if - can be done better, not as if totally useless)
08:27 midnightmagic garit: Also, the idea that spreading the elctricity usage to the transactions on a per-transaction basis is a misleading notion. It is not per-tx. It is per-block. And the security is ensured via that electricity consumption.
08:28 garit midnightmagic: block is limited in capacity. So i can do this, because block capacity is unlikely to change any time soon
08:29 midnightmagic garit: No, because it focuses on something for which the electricity is not being consumed and misleads people into thinking about it in terms of transactions instead of **blocks**.
08:30 garit about security: bitcoin give X^1 security. Its even worse than the merkle puzzles with X^2 security. So, that having spent 10 units of energy opponent needs to spend 10 units of energy. In merkle puzzles (worst crypto i can imagine) for 10 spent units of power opponent would spend 100
08:30 garit midnightmagic: transactions are meaningless without blocks anyway
08:30 midnightmagic uh.
08:30 midnightmagic no.
08:31 midnightmagic but, meh, I guess marinate in your misconceptions..?
08:31 garit Uh. Yes. Thats how transactions properly occur with double spending protection
08:31 midnightmagic I'm, saying "no" to earlier comments.
08:32 garit Block capacity? I was reading that miners are against in increase in size
08:32 garit it increase*
08:33 midnightmagic no. your insistence of ignoring the block when considering the elecrticity consumption
08:33 garit Any example when counting energy per tx is misleading?
08:33 rubensayshi I dont think it's misleading, it's incorrect to compare it to visa though
08:34 midnightmagic Yes; both because a tx is variable size; and because it misleads new users who don't know what you're talking about.
08:34 rubensayshi "bitcoin is about making the transaction they dont want you to make"
08:34 garit rubensayshi: we dont have many working alternative money system to select from, though
08:34 rubensayshi different properties, different purposes, so different costs
08:34 midnightmagic Also, that is not what Bitcoin is about. :-/
08:35 garit midnightmagic: average tx is like that. And especially for new users,to not to deal with blocks , per tx is easier
08:35 midnightmagic Brutal.
08:35 rubensayshi the price to do a trustless USD payment is ... infinite because it's impossible
08:35 garit rubensayshi: you need it at the btc-fiat transfer anyway
08:35 rubensayshi digital that is, cash works fine :P
08:35 midnightmagic garit: Average tx over a long time tends towards X. But some jerks like Ver make huge tx for political purposes which have nothing to do with average; neither is the segwit capacity being cleanly utilized right now.
08:36 midnightmagic so again, no point in considering it since the number is off right now from where it might be. we have to wait until the SW becomes standard in all wallets.
08:37 rubensayshi weak argument
08:37 rubensayshi atm the bitcoin network processes X txs per second
08:37 garit It wont change the situation more than 4 times (sigwit), afaik
08:37 rubensayshi which means we send X power per second
08:37 rubensayshi power / TXs = power per TX
08:38 rubensayshi you can't weight in future improvements xD
08:38 garit afaik btc works at about 300MWt and at 4 tx/sec
08:41 garit midnightmagic: problem is, energy cost per tx is more dependant on btc cost (volatile in hundred times) than on sigwit (improves 4 times)
08:42 garit if btc will rise in price in 100 times, miners will buy more hardware and use everything they can, rising energy consumption by about the same factor
08:42 rubensayshi which means bitcoin will be more resistant to attacks
08:43 garit at the cost of dying planet, using x^1 security level
08:44 rubensayshi most power used for bitcoin mining is cheap / otherwise unused hydro power
08:44 rubensayshi but yea, security comes at a price
08:44 garit rubensayshi: btc already uses about 0.1% of world's energy. It can only rise 100-1000 times more, until all the energy will be used for it
08:45 rubensayshi if the market thinks that is worth it, why not xD
08:46 rubensayshi none of us can predict the future
08:46 midnightmagic The weak argument is the nature of the implication of X watts per tx. The premise ignores basically the entire purpose of the energy consiumption to begin with and fails to even compare it with other, extremely wasteful industries, fails to consider the actual carbon footprint of the energy consumed; fails to consider basically any of the actually interesting arguments.
08:46 rubensayshi maybe combined with the 1000x power increase someone else in the world also finds an awesome new power source :P
08:46 rubensayshi no mindnight, he's right in that sense
08:46 rubensayshi we burn X power to process Y transactions per second
08:47 rubensayshi it makes sense to divide the power by how many TXs we're processing
08:47 garit midnightmagic: 75% of miners are in china. China uses 40% world's coal. So i can assume that heavy-on-coal country uses coal for this too
08:47 midnightmagic It is a misleading premise. It ignores the other stuff; the other stuff is more important.
08:47 midnightmagic garit: No, even that logic is a fail.
08:48 garit midnightmagic: fine. I dpnt even discuss co2. Just kwh
08:48 rubensayshi what it ignores is that bitcoin shouldn't be compared to visa, it's decentralized, it will always be a lesser version of visa if you're simply comparing by the properties of fiat
08:48 garit system uses X power. And makes Y tx
08:48 midnightmagic Uh.. No, discuss CO2. I'm saying you're wrong becase you don't know where all the mines are located so you don't know what's hydroelectric.
08:49 garit midnightmagic: i can simply say 'i dont know where hydros are in china'
08:49 garit this wont make your side of argument better either
08:49 rubensayshi I've only visisted 1 mine in my life, but it was hydro, 100% score ;)
08:50 garit yay, big statistical collection of data =)
08:50 rubensayshi but in all seriousness, cheap electricity is generally found where there is excess of power
08:51 garit Or lack of environmental control
08:51 garit anyway, for now btc's energy usage is okay
08:51 garit but it won't be if price will be higher
08:53 garit If btc would contain all earth's money, it would also need all earths energy. There should be a better way than this
08:54 rubensayshi but it doesnt make sense for bitcoin to contain all earth's money
08:55 rubensayshi it's not designed to be
08:55 garit What is it designed for?
08:56 midnightmagic i'm not going to help you refine your rationale about it anymore.
08:56 garit because some people take it seriously as if btc is a new gold suitable for mass use
08:57 garit midnightmagic: my position isnt unique i suppose. Helping me you would also help btc to be seen in a proper way.
08:58 rubensayshi garit: why would you want to buy your groceries with BTC instead of fiat?
08:58 rubensayshi excluding vanity reasons
08:58 garit rubensayshi: because btc-to-fiat is always a pain
08:59 rubensayshi then don't convert all your fiat to BTC to begin with xD
08:59 garit But muh investments!!111
08:59 rubensayshi buying groceries with your investments is a bit weird isn't it ?
09:00 garit (people do buy btc expecting growth and consider this 'an investment')
09:00 rubensayshi maybe you're a special case, but I think most ppl seperate their investments from their day to day spendings
09:00 midnightmagic The ultimate solution is that the question is invalid. :-( The counter-argument is to simply find a comparable industry and calculate its wastage.
09:01 garit rubensayshi: even with just 1 tx per day, btc can support a million people or so
09:01 garit groceries level lf currency would need 10 tx/day per person i suppose
09:02 garit s/ if / of /
09:02 rubensayshi my point is, there's no reason to use BTC (which comes at a price, both for you as for the world as you've been trying to point out) over fiat for such a thing
09:03 rubensayshi BTC is for when you want to make TXs that you are not allowed to make
09:04 rubensayshi or that are just very hard to make through fiat systems
09:04 garit Ah, okay. That could be much less often
09:04 rubensayshi but there's no reason why it would replace groceries
09:05 rubensayshi so when a currency has a different purpose it needs different properties and it will have different costs
09:05 garit Not even about groceries, but stuff like salary (once a month)
09:05 garit or bonds/pension/dividents
09:06 midnightmagic The benefit of the BTC is the reason why the energy expenditure is justifiable, even where it is using less-than-carbon-neutral production methods.
17:30 garit Hi. Bitcoin core wallet client did use password encrypted wallets and used many iteration of encryption (about 1 million), I suspect that's why i cant open this wallet. Any ideas what client can still do it? (Version was about 8, of client)
19:15 mlz garit, you're using bitcoin core version 8?
19:42 garit I think that was last version i did use with a wallet
19:43 garit wallet was encrypted, with ~1second time and ~300k iterations. New wallets dont ask for password when i replace ~/.bitcoin/wallet.dat
20:59 eck are there any wireshark modules that know how to parse the bitcoin peer-to-peer protocol?
21:37 eck ah, i fixed my encoding, and now it's working
21:37 eck neat