Transcript for #bitcoin-dev 2010/09/28

00:02 kaja ah ok
00:03 kaja kermit: well shouldn't my password be a little more secure then? it's not md5'd or anything
00:03 kaja plaintext
00:04 kaja kermit: in about 20 minutes when i've loaded every block, could you please send me the smallest amount of currency? 0.01 bitcoins or whatever it is
00:04 kaja and i'll send it back to you
00:04 kaja i just want to test it :)
00:16 doublec kaja, try freebitcoins.appspot.com
00:17 doublec kaja, they'll send you 0.05 coins
00:17 kaja doublec: ah
00:18 smop yeah
00:18 smop i should get some bitcoins
00:19 smop but i don't have all the blocks yet
00:19 smop actaully
00:19 smop it was because i didn't have it added in mse
00:19 smop was reading through the wiki
00:19 smop i went from like 5k blocks
00:19 smop to 50k blocks
00:20 kaja if i haven't loaded all of the blocks yet but i've already requested a free bitcoin, then i'll get it when my blocks are loaded, right?
00:21 doublec yes
00:21 nanotube kaja: yes, as long as you give them the correct address :)
00:21 kaja cool. i approve of this idea of universal internet money
00:22 kaja pretty soon there will be internet nationalism
00:25 kaja hmm bitcoind doesn't seem to be working. if i close bitcoin, run bitcoind for a while, then reopen bitcoin, it shows that the number of blocks loaded hasn't increased
00:26 smop kaja: are you using windows ?
00:27 briareus getblockcount = 82499
00:29 kaja smop: linux
00:30 doublec kaja, how long is 'for a while'
00:30 doublec kaja, and what block count does bitcoind and bitcoin show?
00:36 kaja hm, nevermind. i made a typo in the rpcpassword line
00:36 kaja :P
00:54 kaja fedorared: azndan?
00:55 fedorared ?
00:55 kaja sorry
00:55 fedorared np
00:55 kaja i know a guy whose nickname on the internet is 'fedorare'
00:55 kaja i thought it was you
00:55 kaja but i guess it isn't
00:55 fedorared Ah.
00:56 kaja his name is Dan and he's asian. Some fat weirdo with a webcam tried to harrass him on the internet calling him 'azndan'. It stuck as a nickname
00:57 Kiba what zup bitcoiners
00:57 Kiba I got a web app coming soon that will accept bitcoin
00:57 kaja i'm making some internet moneys
00:57 kaja Kiba: what's it do?
00:58 Kiba leavage RPG game mechanic to help achevie your goal in life.
00:58 kaja someone should make a subscription porno that takes bitcoin
00:58 Kiba it's a mininum viable product right now
00:58 kaja THEN it would get off the ground
00:58 Kiba I am launching it now so I can gather feedback on where to go next
00:59 bitbot 0.31
00:59 Kiba ;math calc 5 * 0.062
00:59 Kiba ;math calc 5 / 0.062
00:59 bitbot 80.6451612903
00:59 Kiba apperantly, that will be 80 bitcoins a month
01:00 Kiba the idea is 15 days trial, 5 bucks a month.
01:00 smop nice
01:01 Kiba smop: you can use it now for free since I didn't implement the business model yet...
01:01 Kiba http://soulplaying.com
01:01 Kiba think of it as a TODO list with built-in RPG elements
01:01 smop sight didn't load
01:01 smop site
01:02 kaja yeah not working
01:02 Kiba oh...
01:02 Kiba must be DNS propogation didn't spread out across the internet yet
01:02 Kiba soulplaying.heroku.com
01:03 Kiba I can access it
01:03 Kiba it look crappy..hmm
01:03 redengin lol, grinding irl
01:04 smop see ess ess is choppy
01:04 smop redengin: would do well
01:04 smop if maybe it gave you lots of positive feedback
01:04 smop and had some sort of metagame
01:04 smop like rescuetime just tracks your shit and that's it
01:04 smop actually thats what most of them do
01:06 Kiba negative feedback are worse than postive feedback
01:06 kaja Kiba: neat idea. i've been looking for something like this
01:06 smop yeah
01:06 Kiba but you don't incur them when you're done with the quest.
01:06 Kiba the failure is alway higher than positive reward, as incentive to make you do them
01:07 Kiba kaja: it have some bugs and kinks to work out.
01:08 Kiba once I upgrade the framework, than I will work adding business model feature
01:10 kaja Kiba: how does "EXP points" work?
01:13 Kiba you earn them than you level up
01:13 kaja oh ok so a reward of 10 means i'll get 10 experience points
01:13 kaja and when i get 100 i level up
01:15 Kiba yup
01:15 kaja cool
01:16 redengin and then chicks will like you :)
01:16 kaja Kiba: you need to implement a way to break down todo items
01:16 kaja Kiba: so that there's sub-todo items
01:17 kaja Kiba: and a % complete calculation for each todo
01:17 kaja Kiba: so say my quest is "Build a new computer"
01:17 kaja Kiba: then under it there will be "Buy a motherboard", "Install Arch Linux", and so on
01:17 kaja and if i do 2/10 things, then my quest is 20% complete
01:18 Kiba yes, I got that very clearly
01:21 smop I GOT MY .05 BITCOINS!
01:22 nanotube smop: o/ :)
01:22 smop that's like almost 1 bitcoin
01:22 smop wait
01:22 smop is there like a cents
01:22 smop kind of like how you have dollars and cents
01:22 smop or is everything just coins
01:23 fedorared There are fractions of coins, called bitcents given the hundedths accuracy of the client
01:24 fedorared the 8th is possible supposedly
01:26 Kiba my app would be the latest addition to the bitcoin economy
01:27 Kiba as soon as I got business model features working that is
01:48 briareus getblockcount = 82499
02:09 lfm ;bn
02:09 lfm rn
02:09 lfm ;rn
02:09 bitbot lfm: CurrentBlockCount( 82,508 blocks ) CurrentDifficulty( 917.8309374400 ) NextDifficultyAt( 82,656 blocks ) NextDifficultyIn( 148 blocks )
02:10 lfm ;estimate
02:10 bitbot lfm: LastDiff(9d 02:03:38 ago) ExpBlocks(1308) ActualBlocks(1868) TrgNewDiffDate(2010/10/03 02:04:07 GMT) EstNewDiffDate(2010/09/28 21:24:21 GMT) EstNewDiff(1310.78607885)
02:12 Keefe 17 hours til adjust
02:26 jgarzik there's a bid for 20,000 BTC on mtgox
02:26 jgarzik @ 0.06
02:27 jgarzik hmmm, maybe that's total bids
02:28 doublec price dropped a bit in the last few hours
02:30 jgarzik someone should maintain a wiki page with notable press mentions for bitcoin
02:54 Keefe only 1 pip spread at mtgox at the moment :)
03:27 lfm ;market
03:27 bitbot lfm: Last(bcm:0.0635, mtgox:0.062) High(bcm:0.0625, mtgox:0.0623) Low(bcm:0.0606, mtgox:0.0617) BestBuyPrice(bcm:0.068, mtgox:0.062) Volume(bcm:600, mtgox:12963)
04:35 lfm ;estimate
04:35 bitbot lfm: LastDiff(9d 04:29:07 ago) ExpBlocks(1322) ActualBlocks(1887) TrgNewDiffDate(2010/10/03 02:04:07 GMT) EstNewDiffDate(2010/09/28 21:37:36 GMT) EstNewDiff(1310.09605064)
04:35 lfm ;rn
04:35 bitbot lfm: CurrentBlockCount( 82,527 blocks ) CurrentDifficulty( 917.8309374400 ) NextDifficultyAt( 82,656 blocks ) NextDifficultyIn( 129 blocks )
05:06 joe_1 i need to hire a web designer for my bitcoin site
05:15 joe_1 hey
05:19 grondilu Hi, I wrote a bash function to play rock-paper-scissor on IRC ! I guess one might play for bitcoins. http://pastebin.ca/1950204
05:24 grondilu oops
05:25 joe_1 let me play
05:26 grondilu a much simpler version :
05:26 grondilu rps() { echo "[email protected]" sha1sum <<<"[email protected]" | cut -d' ' -f1
05:26 grondilu joe_1: wanna try ?
05:27 joe_1 k
05:27 grondilu rps() { echo "[email protected]" ; sha1sum <<<"[email protected]" | cut -d' ' -f1 ; }
05:28 grondilu so you exec 'rps choice xxxxx' where choice is your choice 'rock' 'paper' or 'scissors' and xxxx is some noise you type on the keyboard.
05:28 grondilu this you copy the second line of the output here.
05:28 grondilu s/this/then/
05:29 grondilu I get this : 3d60a159bfd51d92507cf07dfbc393f0a36741e2
05:29 grondilu your turn.
05:29 joe_1 im on a windows box atm
05:29 grondilu you don't have bash ?
05:30 grondilu cygwin or something ?
05:30 joe_1 not here right now
05:30 grondilu too bad
05:30 joe_1 yea
05:31 joe_1 i couldnt brute force your guess?
05:32 grondilu I doubt you can, if my noise is long enough.
05:35 joe_1 thats pretty cool
05:36 grondilu I can also enter something like "rps rock $RANDOM$RANDOM$RANDOM$RANDOM"
05:37 joe_1 oh true
05:37 grondilu or, as in my first version, "rps paper $(head -c 16 /dev/random/|xxd -p)"
05:38 joe_1 wat is xxd
05:39 grondilu converts binary into hexadecimal
05:39 joe_1 oh ok
05:39 joe_1 but you dont necessarily have to use that you could leave that out right?
05:40 grondilu yeah, you can just type crap such as jnkgndnfkjdgfkheurrfre??
05:40 joe_1 well i mean without the xxd
05:40 grondilu no, you need xxd to get ascii
05:40 grondilu /dev/random is a binary file
05:41 joe_1 oh because bash will throw up if it doesnt evaluate to ascii?
05:41 grondilu well, your terminal won't be happy.
05:41 joe_1 oo
05:41 joe_1 ok
05:41 joe_1 cause your thing probably echo's back what you typed in
05:42 grondilu it does indeed
05:42 grondilu at the end you have to show the initial string to your opponent, to prove him that you won.
05:43 joe_1 ha thats cool
05:43 grondilu (if you won)
05:46 joe_1 have you been to my new casino yet
05:48 grondilu no. I don't play money games, but for some time I was curious about how to build some.
05:48 joe_1 yeah right now its just roulette but i'm trying to put in poker
05:48 grondilu If you like my rock-paper-scissor function, you can give me some bitcoin :-) 1B2iTej3NC4LPL3PhSZiFBdB4chqZrNuck
05:49 grondilu you have a roulette website ?
05:49 joe_1 yeah it is at cashcow.no-ip.org
05:50 grondilu ok
05:50 joe_1 i can get you started with a couple bitcoins just let me know what your username is
05:51 grondilu why do I have to register ??
05:52 joe_1 no
05:52 grondilu I thought the point of bitcoins was that you don't have to register anywhere.
05:52 joe_1 i
05:52 joe_1 'll send 2 btc to that address
05:53 grondilu oh sorry : "Easy No-Form Signup: Enter desired credentials and click Log In"
05:53 grondilu hang on
05:55 grondilu ok my username is just grondilu
05:56 joe_1 ive updated your account with 5 BTC
05:56 grondilu ok I'll play them :)
05:56 grondilu thks
05:56 joe_1 np
05:58 grondilu it's my first bitcoins actually, how long does it take to receive it ?
05:58 joe_1 immediate
05:58 grondilu ah
05:59 grondilu on mybitcoin I read "Account Balance is: 0.00 BTC"
05:59 joe_1 just move the bitcoins into your checking account and withdraw
05:59 joe_1 ok move the bitcoins into your checking account
05:59 grondilu I don't get it.
05:59 joe_1 In cashcow, find where it says Transfer [ ] BTC from [Checking to Casino]
06:00 joe_1 Change it to say Casino to Checking, then enter 5. Then click Go
06:00 grondilu oh
06:00 grondilu I see
06:00 grondilu hang on
06:02 doublec I don't think mybitcoin will allow you to use the balance until it's confirmed
06:02 grondilu ok
06:02 grondilu then I just press "Launch roulette" ?
06:02 Diablo-D3 HASHIN!
06:02 joe_1 no- if you want to play roulette move the coins back to your casino account
06:03 joe_1 if you want to put them in to your mybitcoin account, then keep them in checking, and use the other form that says pay out to a foreign address
06:04 grondilu damned it, that's not trivial.
06:04 joe_1 it's 2 accounts to prevent people from going crazy at the roulette table
06:05 grondilu ok I have 1 in casino, and 4 in checking. I guess now I can press "launch roulette" and it will bet 1 BTC, right ?
06:05 joe_1 yes
06:05 grondilu ok, I'll do that.
06:06 grondilu well, it opened a new window ?!
06:07 grondilu a flash anim is loading
06:08 joe_1 thats ok it will be fast once its up
06:08 grondilu wow
06:11 grondilu I click on "even" but nothing happens.
06:12 grondilu something's wrong. Maybe it's my browser (I'm using uzbl).
06:12 joe_1 oh, wow, i cant seem to reproduce the problem you're having
06:12 joe_1 when you click even a chip should appear there, then you have to click spin
06:15 grondilu webkit is not very good with flash. I'll try again with an other browser.
06:19 grondilu I feel bad having received your bitcoins while I can't play. Give me your bitcoin address so that I give you your 5BTC back.
06:19 joe_1 dont worry abou it
06:20 grondilu I'll go to the library later, I'll be able to use an other machine. I'll try again.
06:22 joe_1 ok
06:22 grondilu Your site seems fine, but IMO you should consider making a plain text interface for people who have non standard plateform.
06:23 joe_1 Yeah, Im thinking of putting that in soon. I have already received feedback from others that they dont like flash in general
06:24 grondilu If you do so, may I suggest you use the hash method I've described here for my paper-rock-sciss, so that the user can always check that the game was fair.
06:25 kermit hmm i thought hte FAQ said bitcoin supported smaller amounts than 1/100 unit
06:31 joe_1 the system does but the client may not
06:33 joe_1 does anyone know the url to the poker room
06:38 doublec joe_1, what poker room?
06:38 doublec joe_1, how are your html 5 skills? You could do a canvas based roulette implementation.
06:39 kermit joe_1: oh, i can change that :)
06:41 joe_1 haha -- i dont even know what html 5 is
06:41 joe_1 the Bitcoin Poker Room under the Marketplace in bitcoin.org forums
06:42 joe_1 How would a canvas based implementation work? is that where you have the image, and then box out each place on the image to correspond to a different hyperlink?
06:42 joe_1 I could just make a table with some javascript
06:43 kermit briareus: were you evre able to compile or get a binary that worked on that system?
06:43 kermit briareus: oh wait i forgot, bitcoind ran, nevermind
06:56 doublec joe_1, <canvas> gives you an area on the page that you can address direct pixel data
06:56 doublec joe_1, for an example: http://bluishcoder.co.nz/js8080
06:56 doublec click 'animate' on that page
06:56 doublec the area where the game is drawn is a canvas
06:57 doublec assuming you have a browser that supports canvas of course
06:59 doublec it's the browser vendors attempt to counter flash usage
07:00 joe_1 but i thought mapping regions of images has been around forever in html
07:00 doublec canvas is different. It lets you access individual pixels, draw lines and curves, etc
07:02 doublec here's an example of a roulette-like thing: http://www.switchonthecode.com/tutorials/creating-a-roulette-wheel-using-html5-canvas
07:03 doublec restricting your game to canvas-supporting browsers may be a deal killer for you though
07:03 Diablo-D3 you mean the majority of browsers?
07:05 doublec yeah, the majority do currently support it
07:05 doublec even the IE 9 beta does
07:06 Diablo-D3 IE isnt in the majority.
07:06 doublec I'm not sure what you are getting at
07:07 doublec Chrome, Opera, Safari (including on mobile) and Firefox support it in release browsers
07:07 doublec IE supports it in beta
07:07 Diablo-D3 this is what Im saying
07:07 Diablo-D3 anything webkit and firefox does it
07:07 Diablo-D3 no one cares what msie does
07:07 joe_1 haha
07:08 joe_1 i dont know how to do graphic design i can only program
07:13 joe_1 although i could try to put something togethre
07:14 joe_1 right now im focused on getting poker on the website
07:14 joe_1 not sure how to prioritize
07:14 doublec you'll have the same problem with poker
07:14 doublec some people will hate flash
07:14 doublec some people will hate java
07:14 joe_1 haha.. it will be java
07:14 joe_1 because i have a java poker server/client that i made a few years ago
07:14 doublec I say pick what you prefer, make money off those that use it, and then build some other version to please everyone else
07:17 kermit who wants a free bitcoin?
07:20 UukGoblin who wants a free beer?
07:21 kermit what happens when you send to IP address that more than one person is using?
07:21 doublec only one client would be listening on the port and they'd get it
07:22 doublec I guess
07:22 kermit oh
07:22 doublec giving out your IP address for receipt of money sounds a tad risky though
07:23 joe_1 isnt java safe?
07:23 doublec it's as safe as flash
07:24 kermit doublec: how so?
07:24 kermit er, how is java unsafe, i mean
07:24 doublec kermit, I didn't say it was unsafe
07:25 doublec flash and java are both virtual machines running in the browser
07:25 kermit oh i misread, sorry
07:25 doublec so they'd have the same risks
07:25 kermit so did i just break the whole thing by seding .00001 btc? heh
07:25 kermit the UI didnt want me to
07:25 doublec I am probably in a minority in that I don't mind flash or java apps
07:26 doublec But I prefer html based apps if possible
07:26 doublec kermit, so you're the one that just crashed all the bitcoin clients!?!
07:28 kermit haha
07:28 joe_1 wow mine's down too
07:28 kermit it is not :P all my peers are still htere
07:29 lfm someone just sent a bunch of fees
07:30 kermit where do the fees go?
07:33 lfm they get added to the 50.00 reward
07:35 kermit you mean the 50 you get for a block? at some point fees will be incured faster than new coins will be made
07:37 kermit omg someone deleted http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin
07:37 Diablo-D3 yes, wikipedia is non-notable
07:37 joe_1 wikipedia is worthless now. everything is deleted
07:38 joe_1 they're trying to be a "real" encyclopedia
07:39 bonsaikitten deleterians are really confused
07:39 bonsaikitten how does removing valid content make an encyclopedia mor relevant?
07:40 UukGoblin hmm I've earned 50.00000010 with one of my generated blocks
07:40 kermit i dont really understand wikipedia, an article is only a few KB, thast not worth one human's blink to bother deleting
07:40 UukGoblin and now I can't transfer it to my master account because
07:40 UukGoblin SendMoney() : Error: This is an oversized transaction that requires a transaction fee of 0.01
07:40 UukGoblin (when I try to transfer 50.0000001
07:40 UukGoblin )
07:40 kermit so just transfer 50
07:41 lfm leave a couple cents behind
07:41 UukGoblin but why is it an oversized transaction?
07:41 UukGoblin shouldn't be
07:41 lfm needs to leave more than 0.01 behind
07:42 lfm thats wrong message. it is an undersized transaction (the change part)
07:42 UukGoblin trying to send 50.00 results in the same
07:42 lfm try 49.99
07:42 UukGoblin that went
07:43 UukGoblin I'm 0.01000010 down
07:43 lfm Its cuz some silly bastard was playing with microcents
07:44 FreeMoney do you have the newest version?
07:44 lfm Satoshi is aware of the problem, I think there is some code to deal with it in the next version
07:45 FreeMoney oh, I thought it was already out
07:45 lfm not in 0.3.12 yet afaik
07:55 AAA_awright Like maybe removing the transaction fee?
07:55 lfm huh? I think his fix was to add more fees
07:56 AAA_awright What good would that do?
07:56 lfm he passes on the microcents to someone else.
07:57 AAA_awright I'm lost, if the problem is too many fees, the solution is remove the fees.
07:57 lfm youd have to ask him why he thinks its a good idea
07:57 lfm the problem isnt really too many fees. its cuz someone is putting out really tiny ones that he wasnt expecting
07:57 AAA_awright If you are trying to prevent a flood I don't see how that's helpful. Plus, you are setting an arbitrary tax.
07:58 kermit sorry
07:58 AAA_awright UukGoblin: What's the problem then?
07:59 kermit the faq said it supported it http://www.bitcoin.org/faq#How_divisible_are_Bitcoins
07:59 UukGoblin AAA_awright, I can't transmit MY money to MYSELF
07:59 UukGoblin without paying a fee (and I believe the current JSON-RPC doesn't allow for even sending out a fee)
07:59 lfm 0.0000010 fees winding up in someones reward then the cleint trying to stop so called dust with convoluted logic
08:00 AAA_awright Why the fee again?
08:00 AAA_awright What conditions is the fee triggered?
08:00 AAA_awright Your fee that you don't like
08:01 AAA_awright >=50 seems rather arbitrary
08:01 UukGoblin if there are fees implemented, PEOPLE should be able to choose how much they're charging, not satoshi
08:01 lfm cuz some silly bastard was playing around and causing trouble
08:01 spaetz UukGoblin: there is a command line option to set the fee you want to charge afaik
08:01 lfm UukGoblin, you are free to change it, it is open source
08:02 AAA_awright How is someone causing trouble again?
08:02 UukGoblin lfm, but only a small percentage of people will download my version ;-]
08:02 AAA_awright What difference does it make what amount you are sending over the network?
08:02 UukGoblin it's not a /huge/ trouble, just breaking my auto-transfer scripts ;-)
08:02 lfm UukGoblin, you don't need everyone to run it, just you
08:02 UukGoblin I can't send 50.0000001 from one account to another
08:03 UukGoblin lfm, but no-one will accept my transaction
08:03 AAA_awright How is some "silly bastard" making it so you are charged a fee based on if your transaction is over 50 or not?
08:03 lfm UukGoblin, actually everyone will accept it
08:03 UukGoblin lfm, oh, I didn't realize that
08:03 lfm the test is on the creation of the transaction, not when it comes from the net
08:03 UukGoblin lol.
08:04 UukGoblin that doesn't prevent anything then
08:04 lfm UukGoblin, right, thats how the 0.00001 was created in the first place, by the "silly bastard" making a special version for himself
08:04 UukGoblin right.
08:05 UukGoblin I thought he found some other hole
08:05 lfm nope, its more of a design feature
08:05 AAA_awright I didn't know there was any client-side limit...?
08:05 UukGoblin it's a bit pointless then