| 00:17 | redengin | grrr, why does bitcoin draw out the econ-crazies |
| 00:18 | LobsterMan | what do you mean? |
| 00:20 | redengin | ppl worried about bank runs and monetary policy and all sorts of things they have poor understanding of to begin with |
| 00:20 | LobsterMan | just smile and nod at their ramblings lol |
| 00:54 | dwdollar | I'm questioning and thinking out loud. I don't see why any of this is crazy talk. If the economists are so smart, who wouldn't be in this mess to begin with. |
| 00:54 | redengin | and why do you believe that? |
| 00:55 | dwdollar | Believe what? |
| 00:55 | dwdollar | That we're in a mess? |
| 00:55 | redengin | metereologists are smart people, why don't they control the weather |
| 00:56 | dwdollar | They can predict it better than an economist can predict the market. |
| 00:56 | dwdollar | IMO... |
| 00:59 | redengin | well the market is even more difficult, since its not just physics, but full of irrational behaviors |
| 00:59 | redengin | but thats the fun of it, you can learn the markets and then figure out how to use your own predictions |
| 01:02 | dwdollar | How can I demand something I already own? Is that possible? |
| 01:02 | dwdollar | I'm asking... I don't know... |
| 01:03 | dwdollar | Are people withdrawing funds from their own account really demanding USD? |
| 01:04 | dwdollar | It's already theirs... |
| 01:04 | redengin | yes, thats why they are on demand accounts |
| 01:04 | dwdollar | Or suppose to be. |
| 01:04 | redengin | your supposition is that the bank is some not-for-profit wealth storage locker |
| 01:05 | dwdollar | But that's how must people see it... |
| 01:06 | dwdollar | Especially if it's 'insured' |
| 01:07 | redengin | you're putting together so many different terms that you are confusing the issue |
| 01:07 | dwdollar | hehe... |
| 01:07 | dwdollar | Yeah probably. |
| 01:08 | redengin | I'm guessing this is related to our forum conversation on bank runs. there have been recent bank runs, and the ppl got their money |
| 01:08 | redengin | there is adequate supply to meet the temporary irrational uprising |
| 01:09 | dwdollar | irrational uprising??? |
| 01:09 | redengin | what do all these bank runners do with their suitcase full of dollars?! I would guess they wait a few days then put it bank into the system |
| 01:11 | dwdollar | Is that so bad? It is their money after all. |
| 01:13 | redengin | its just irrational, their strain on the system did no good to anyone |
| 01:15 | dwdollar | Maybe the supporters of central banking are irrational for believing it can work indefinitely. |
| 01:17 | redengin | I think if you research it you'll find its a much more stable system than others |
| 01:19 | dwdollar | If the USD survives the next 50 years I might believe you. |
| 01:26 | redengin | what do you plan to do if it doesn't? |
| 01:26 | MacRohard | use bitcoins maybe :P |
| 01:26 | redengin | lol |
| 01:26 | MacRohard | there's no way the us dollar will survive in it's present form |
| 01:27 | MacRohard | i dunno what they'll do about it though |
| 01:27 | redengin | what "form"? |
| 01:27 | dwdollar | Hopefully I'll have enough Bitcoins, gold, and silver by then. |
| 01:28 | MacRohard | redengin, well.. a currency backed by cia drug dealing and military interventions |
| 01:28 | dwdollar | Bitcoins may not exist in their current form, but I think the basic idea is a major development. |
| 01:28 | MacRohard | then again, maybe it won't be so different heh |
| 01:29 | MacRohard | bitcoin is a fantastic idea.. you could do the same thing in a way that leaves the fiat door open though |
| 01:30 | MacRohard | a skeleton key for the central bank to use |
| 01:30 | MacRohard | they could just upload the federal reserves books into a fresh controlled bitcoin and set it loose |
| 01:31 | MacRohard | but then again why not just settle transactions in a big central database |
| 01:32 | dwdollar | hehe... yeah. Easier for them to manipulate. |
| 01:32 | MacRohard | make it cheap enough and you get most of the major benefits of bitcoin without giving up control |
| 01:32 | MacRohard | meh |
| 01:33 | MacRohard | i'm interested to see there's now a russian bitcoin exchange |
| 01:33 | MacRohard | might help decouple bitcoin from paypal |
| 01:33 | dwdollar | I think we scared redengin off? |
| 01:35 | MacRohard | we just need venezuelan and iranian exchanges |
| 01:35 | MacRohard | they might actually want ot use it given the general lack of available payment services |
| 01:46 | Keefe | that might be just asking for the usgov to try to interfere with bitcoin |
| 01:47 | MacRohard | they haven't had much success against other p2p apps |
| 01:47 | Keefe | haven't tried hard enough. haven't cared quite enough |
| 01:47 | MacRohard | perhaps |
| 01:48 | Keefe | but control over money is far more important to them than the music industry hurting |
| 01:48 | MacRohard | yeah i agree with that |
| 02:11 | second | yeah I'm ok with the archive, but i'm not clicking the link :P |
| 02:11 | MacRohard | what's up with xe.net? shut down to cover up the dollar slide? |
| 02:11 | MacRohard | nm. it's fine |
| 02:12 | MacRohard | bit slow maye |
| 07:57 | UukGoblin | hmm, iranian/iraqi/afghan exchange would be bloody awesome |
| 08:05 | lfm | exchange of what? |
| 08:05 | MacRohard | reals and dinars for bitcoins |
| 08:05 | MacRohard | maybe street level fx dealers could start selling bitcoins too |
| 08:06 | lfm | you think we could give them a common currency? ya, awsome but Id say dont hold your breath |
| 08:06 | MacRohard | i think iranians might be interested because of the general difficulty they have sending payments of any kind |
| 08:07 | lfm | you mean sending international paym,ents? |
| 08:07 | MacRohard | iraq and afghanistan don't really have that problem since they're now us colonies with pretty good acces to the reular financial system |
| 08:07 | MacRohard | right yes |
| 08:09 | lfm | seems it would need someone inside to exchange bitcoins for their local currencies |
| 08:10 | MacRohard | right |
| 08:10 | MacRohard | like mtgox, bitcoinexchange and the new russian webmoney one |
| 08:10 | lfm | I wouldn't wanna be that person |
| 08:11 | MacRohard | why not? |
| 08:11 | MacRohard | it seems like it would be a good new product for fx small fx/money transfer businesses to offer |
| 08:12 | lfm | in iran say, exchangeing iran currency for some forein devil computer money! I dont even think theyd bother to make up a law to arrest you on it |
| 08:12 | MacRohard | the govt might like it |
| 08:13 | lfm | might just as well tell their givt to start using us$ |
| 08:13 | lfm | govt |
| 08:13 | MacRohard | bitcoin isn't usd |
| 08:14 | lfm | tell iranian beaurocrats that bitcoin isnt tied to us$ |
| 08:15 | MacRohard | i don't know how they'd react, but neither do you and it seems like you have some presumptions that may not be valid |
| 08:16 | lfm | maybe. Maybe Iran doesnt really care if their people adopt decadent us centric internet ideas. I have a impression they do care |
| 08:17 | MacRohard | that's because you get your informaiton about iran from zionist cotnrolled us media ;) |
| 08:17 | MacRohard | (probably |
| 08:18 | lfm | yes largely from us media. |
| 08:19 | lfm | seems they are quite capable of creating their own biases without need to resort to zionist control tho |
| 08:19 | MacRohard | bitcoin might actually be sharia compliant ;) |
| 08:20 | lfm | you mean like how their banks arnt spozed to charge interest? |
| 08:21 | MacRohard | yeah and how payments have to be in gold for some things |
| 08:21 | MacRohard | i'm no expert |
| 08:21 | MacRohard | it might be worth asking a technologically knowledgeable cleric to express an opinion about it |
| 08:22 | lfm | that would be interesting |
| 09:07 | Keefe | i sent btc using the rpc command sendtoaddress, 50 minutes ago, yet it still says 0/unconfirmed |
| 09:08 | Keefe | 9 blocks have been generated by the net since then |
| 09:09 | Keefe | do i have to keep waiting? or might something have gone wrong with my client? |
| 09:10 | ArtForz | just wait a bit more, when a TX doesn't get into the next block the client waits between 30 and 60 minutes before resending it |
| 09:10 | Keefe | it's like the txn wasn't distributed so none of the nodes who generated the last 9 blocks published my txn |
| 09:10 | Keefe | ah, thx ArtForz |
| 09:13 | ArtForz | you can check debug.log for ResendWalletTransactions() |
| 09:16 | Keefe | nice. i see it did that ~20min ago |
| 09:16 | ArtForz | you shound see the TX going out to other nodes right after that |
| 09:16 | Keefe | no blocks have been generated by the net since, so probably the next block will include my txn |
| 09:17 | ArtForz | ahh, probably |
| 09:18 | ArtForz | here 2 TX are queued for current block, 2b6dc532dffe98c6be7a and b788481533e2b46e9314 |
| 09:19 | Keefe | ResendWalletTransactions() |
| 09:20 | ArtForz | yep, so it's queued |
| 09:20 | Keefe | so all's good. i've been watching more closely since i lost a block a couple days ago (guessing connection issues) |
| 09:21 | Keefe | 5 min agter generating a block, it realized someone else did 17 min prior |
| 09:21 | Keefe | after* |
| 09:22 | ArtForz | yea, that sucks |
| 09:29 | Keefe | that's odd. looks like i had 7 or 8 txns queued at the time you said you had 2 |
| 09:30 | ArtForz | yep, turns out I lost connection :/ |
| 09:31 | Keefe | so that's why we got no blocks for 35 minutes? :P |
| 09:32 | Keefe | how many hps are you doing now? |
| 09:33 | ArtForz | pretty close to 2Ghps |
| 09:33 | Keefe | targeting ~20% of the total as it grows? |
| 09:33 | ArtForz | yep |
| 09:34 | ArtForz | somewhere between 15 and 25% |
| 09:34 | lfm | Keefe, do you use any -addnode args on your client? |
| 09:34 | Keefe | no |
| 09:35 | Keefe | is that only for bootstrapping, or does it make it keep connected to them more aggressively long-term? |
| 09:35 | lfm | might help make better connections if you found one or two well connected nodes to hook into |
| 09:36 | Keefe | worth trying |
| 09:36 | Keefe | i couldn't determine whether my connection issue a couple days ago was my node being isolated from everyone, or whether there was a local netsplit |
| 09:37 | lfm | ya, if your isp is having trouble then theres not much you can do |
| 09:37 | Keefe | the latter seems unlikely, since i'm on a major isp in california usa |
| 09:37 | Keefe | verizon |
| 09:37 | Keefe | but i know it can happen to the best |
| 09:38 | lfm | well even big guys do things like maintainance and stuff, often in the middle of the night when they think fewer people are watching |
| 09:38 | Keefe | it was very close to midnight |
| 09:42 | lfm | its kinda funny, sometimes when I call em they first try to claim its my problem, then when they realize I might know more than them they express surpize that their own outfit is doing stuff they were not aware of till that very moment |
| 09:47 | Keefe | lol |
| 09:48 | UukGoblin | there /are/ fewer people watching in the middle of the night. :-) |
| 09:48 | Keefe | ya one of these days i'm going to have to call them about my dsl modem often not getting the sync rate it should. and i just know it will go like that. blame me, play ignorant, etc |
| 09:50 | UukGoblin | Keefe, probably first things they'll ask you to do is to connect to a test socket (if there is such thing in usa) and change the wires and microfilters. /me went through this process once, took about 2 weeks, but they finally fixed it |
| 09:50 | Keefe | sometimes it gets the top speed and nice snr margin, other times it's just awful |
| 09:50 | lfm | thats why they dont like to mention actual speeds much any more, they can then deliver anything they feel like |
| 09:50 | UukGoblin | (with bethere.co.uk, not verizon) |
| 09:50 | UukGoblin | Keefe, might be some interference too |
| 09:51 | lfm | UukGoblin, nope, the FIRST thing is they will ask you to reboot your computer |
| 09:51 | UukGoblin | "have you tried turning it off and then on again?" |
| 09:51 | ArtForz | I though it was power cycle the modem |
| 09:51 | lfm | are you running a virus scanner? |
| 09:52 | Keefe | ya, i have a "test" socket also, which to access disconnects the house, but connecting there doesn't seem to make a diff |
| 09:52 | ArtForz | pff, my ISP refuses to give me anything more than 3M/256k DSL because their holy DB says my line is crap |
| 09:53 | Keefe | 3/768 here, when it's working right |
| 09:53 | lfm | at the wrong end of your block? |
| 09:53 | ArtForz | pretty much |
| 09:53 | ArtForz | 2 techs measured the line, it'd be perfectly capable of >16M dsl2+ |
| 09:54 | lfm | I only get 1m cuz Im too cheap to pay for more |
| 09:54 | ArtForz | hell, I already had 16M/1M dsl2+ for several months with decent SNR and no line problems |
| 09:54 | Keefe | have you been to the forums at dslreports? |
| 09:55 | ArtForz | until the DSLAM died, then it was back to 3M/256k |
| 10:02 | UukGoblin | ArtForz, is that 2ghps from gfx cards, or some servers you have? |
| 10:03 | ArtForz | gfx cards, 2 HD5970s and 4 HD5770s |
| 10:03 | UukGoblin | whoah |
| 10:03 | UukGoblin | that's... a lot then ;-) |
| 10:04 | ArtForz | the 5970 rocks, well over 650Mhash/s per card when overclocked |
| 10:05 | UukGoblin | cool |
| 10:06 | lfm | Id think theyr most likely quite warm |
| 10:08 | ArtForz | yep, dual 5970 is ~850W |
| 10:12 | UukGoblin | nice |
| 10:12 | UukGoblin | so I guess you'll need around 10,000 difficulty to make it stop being profitable ;-) |
| 10:12 | lfm | yup warm, not cool |
| 10:13 | UukGoblin | I mean, he has to keep them cool somehow ;-) |
| 10:13 | ArtForz | yeah, somewhere around that |
| 10:14 | lfm | UukGoblin, also kinda depends on the markets prices for bitcoins |
| 10:14 | ArtForz | CUDA mining will stop being profitable a lot earlier, so I'm not too worried |
| 10:14 | UukGoblin | lfm, yeah, but it's been pretty steady recently |
| 10:14 | doublec | is the gpu based client a modified version of the original or a rewrite? |
| 10:14 | ArtForz | well, kind of both |
| 10:14 | ArtForz | I replaced the miner in the stock client with a TCP server |
| 10:15 | ArtForz | and have standalone GPU miners connect to it |
| 10:15 | doublec | good idea - that way you don't have to redo all the protocol stuff |
| 10:15 | UukGoblin | yup |
| 10:16 | UukGoblin | the GPU miners just need some bytes from each block |
| 10:16 | ArtForz | yep |
| 10:16 | UukGoblin | which the stock client can generate |
| 10:16 | UukGoblin | and then they need to feed the resulting nonce back ;-) |
| 10:16 | ArtForz | yep |
| 10:17 | ArtForz | it also makes optimizing the miner a lot easier |
| 11:27 | Dybbuk | /me shakes his fist at the radio waves. |
| 11:27 | Dybbuk | Hey! |
| 11:27 | Dybbuk | Weird-ass IRC client. |
| 11:29 | bonsaikitten | weird ass-irc client? ;) |
| 11:30 | necrodearia | You put a space before / |
| 11:30 | necrodearia | heh, reminds me of the "weird ass-car" quotes |
| 11:31 | Dybbuk | I didn't put the space there. |
| 11:31 | Dybbuk | Something else did. |
| 11:31 | Dybbuk | Something nefarious. It's...it's stegonography. |
| 11:31 | necrodearia | Spaces sometime like to appear from nowhere. For example right now there is a space in front of me and the monitor that I am glancing at as I type this. I have NO idea where it came from. |
| 11:32 | Dybbuk | That space contains 8 bits of mischief. |
| 11:38 | UukGoblin | pebkac |
| 11:41 | Dybbuk | These network issues are getting ridiculous. |
| 11:45 | UukGoblin | hehe |
| 11:46 | UukGoblin | I don't understand this new p2p payment system called ripple - and they don't even have an IRC channel |
| 11:46 | UukGoblin | what if someone says they owe you a $1000 in the system and then RIPple YOU OFF? |
| 11:53 | Dybbuk | Hey, somebody sent me a Bitpenny! |
| 11:53 | Dybbuk | I must have said something really clever. |
| 11:53 | edcba | ;faucet |
| 11:53 | bitbot | faucet is https://freebitcoins.appspot.com (Free Bitcoins) courtesy of gavin |
| 11:54 | nathan7 | :o |
| 11:58 | RazielZ | I wonder if I could make money by buying and selling bitcoins |
| 11:58 | RazielZ | lulz |
| 12:01 | UukGoblin | RazielZ, if you do it properly, you probably could :-) |
| 12:02 | RazielZ | Hmmmm.. |
| 12:02 | RazielZ | Buy games low, sellt hem low-ish but in bitcoins, exchange bitcoins for dollarrz, buy moar gamez, and so on... |
| 12:02 | RazielZ | that could actully work. |
| 12:03 | UukGoblin | games? |
| 12:03 | RazielZ | Yes games. |
| 12:03 | RazielZ | Computer games. |
| 12:03 | RazielZ | Well, more like cd-keys |
| 12:03 | UukGoblin | hm |
| 12:03 | UukGoblin | yeah, sounds like a plan ;-] |
| 12:03 | UukGoblin | if you can get them cheap ;-] |
| 12:05 | RazielZ | That depends on what people cosnider cheap |
| 12:05 | RazielZ | ._. |
| 12:07 | RazielZ | I can get bad comapny 2 for 350 bitcoins, if my calculations are correct |
| 12:08 | UukGoblin | you know there's biddingpond.com, right? |
| 12:08 | RazielZ | Uuuh |
| 12:08 | RazielZ | Yeah I just found out |
| 12:08 | UukGoblin | yw ;-) |
| 12:09 | RazielZ | Do people actually use it? It looks dead-ish |
| 12:09 | UukGoblin | it's not properly born yet |
| 12:09 | UukGoblin | and no, I don't think many people use it |
| 12:09 | niekie | Channel op count under minimum safety threshold... taking countermeasures, please stand by. |
| 12:09 | UukGoblin | but I think you'll be more likely to find potential buyers there than anywhere else I can think of |
| 12:10 | UukGoblin | niekie, I'm not sure exactly how freenode works, but can't we get ChanServ in here? |
| 12:10 | RazielZ | We can |
| 12:10 | RazielZ | I mean you can |
| 12:10 | RazielZ | xD |
| 12:10 | niekie | UukGoblin: the channel is already registered, by sirius-m. |
| 12:11 | niekie | Ask him, I guess. |
| 12:11 | UukGoblin | niekie, perhaps make a trade on bitcoinexchange and put "GET US THE CHANSERV BACK!!11" in the comment? |
| 12:11 | niekie | Lol. |
| 12:12 | UukGoblin | do you consider them evil, centrally-owned, and bank-like? |
| 12:12 | niekie | Nah. |
| 12:12 | UukGoblin | or do you simply have nothing to trade? |
| 12:12 | RazielZ | biddingbay could use a web designer |
| 12:12 | RazielZ | Or two |
| 12:12 | RazielZ | <.< |
| 12:12 | niekie | biddingpond? :P |
| 12:13 | RazielZ | yeah |
| 12:13 | RazielZ | It's because of the "forget the bay" thing |
| 12:13 | UukGoblin | RazielZ, I'm sure it'll get some once it gets more popular |
| 12:13 | UukGoblin | hey, at least it's not Comic Sans |
| 12:13 | niekie | UukGoblin: meh, I have no real opinion on them. Just never felt the need to use one. |
| 12:14 | RazielZ | isn't there a gpu bitcoin generator? |
| 12:14 | RazielZ | <.< |
| 12:14 | RazielZ | cpu just isn't making enough |
| 12:14 | RazielZ | 3600khash/s for shame |
| 12:14 | UukGoblin | I use them, but I do wonder what the IRS equivalent will think if my primary income will come from mt gox |
| 12:14 | UukGoblin | RazielZ, there certainly are, but I don't think there's any opensource one yet |
| 12:15 | RazielZ | I don't need it to be open source, I need it to work :D |
| 12:15 | UukGoblin | s/will come/comes/ |
| 12:16 | UukGoblin | RazielZ, I'm also not sure if there are any open-binary ones freely available |
| 12:16 | UukGoblin | but there might be |
| 12:17 | RazielZ | Biddingpond's currency converter has two problems <.< |
| 12:17 | RazielZ | One is it doesn't have BTCs listed, and the second is, well, it doesn't seem to work with any currency anyway |
| 12:17 | RazielZ | I also can't find where to put my bitcin address x.x |
| 12:19 | RazielZ | bitcoin* |
| 12:19 | RazielZ | Oooh internet services category |
| 12:19 | RazielZ | I should offer a dedicated servurr. |
| 12:24 | RazielZ | ohwait maybe I should code for bitcoins |
| 12:24 | RazielZ | Except I suck, but I can lern <.< |
| 12:27 | UukGoblin | they all say they can learn... ;-] |
| 12:29 | UukGoblin | mullvad or something was offering dedicated servurrs for btc, weren't they? |
| 12:29 | UukGoblin | I guess some competition never hurt anyone |
| 12:30 | RazielZ | Yeah except I only actually have one. |
| 12:33 | Dybbuk | I should offer my really funny horse joke for BTC. |
| 12:33 | Dybbuk | Except that everybody would want a refund. |
| 12:34 | RazielZ | lol |
| 12:34 | UukGoblin | hm |
| 12:35 | UukGoblin | the only good joke I know wouldn't make much sense over IRC |
| 12:37 | nathan7 | :o |
| 12:38 | nathan7 | it surprises me every time, that I'm an op |
| 13:09 | UukGoblin | ok, existentional question |
| 13:09 | UukGoblin | why do you think $0.062, so precisely? |
| 13:09 | LobsterMan | just where the market deems one btc's worth lies at present? |
| 13:10 | UukGoblin | https://mtgox.com/trade/history the "All time" graph is really interesting |
| 13:10 | UukGoblin | it's like sin(x)/x |
| 13:11 | LobsterMan | hmm |
| 13:11 | UukGoblin | it seems to oscillate around $0.062 |
| 13:11 | UukGoblin | fluctuating less and less |
| 13:11 | UukGoblin | just like this central value was somehow crucial |
| 13:11 | LobsterMan | maybe some of the bigger economic powers are covertly manipulating things here |
| 13:11 | UukGoblin | it's not exactly the price of power, is it? |
| 13:13 | LobsterMan | im not sure what the power rates are where i live |
| 13:13 | LobsterMan | i dont pay for my electric bill at present ^_^ |
| 13:15 | UukGoblin | sounds like a perfect setup for generation ;-] |
| 13:15 | UukGoblin | I'm sure however that if you turn up with a $1k monthly bill your landlord won't be very happy |
| 13:16 | LobsterMan | i dont think it would be that easy to use that much power |
| 13:16 | UukGoblin | I wonder if having a significant economy (some mmorpg type of one) would change the market value at all |
| 13:18 | UukGoblin | hmm you'd need about 10kW by UK price... that's 45 amperes... |
| 13:18 | UukGoblin | yeah, not exactly easy without some nice damage to the wiring ;-] |
| 13:19 | LobsterMan | even running several video cards over the span of a month... |
| 13:19 | LobsterMan | i can imagine it would be more than a few hundred $ |
| 13:41 | LobsterMan | warning: ISO C++ 1998 does not support 'long long' |
| 13:41 | LobsterMan | derp what |
| 13:41 | UukGoblin | nope, it doesn't |
| 13:42 | LobsterMan | is that a warning to be concerned about? |
| 13:42 | LobsterMan | boost has been tossing me 10's of those as i compilse |
| 13:42 | LobsterMan | compile* |
| 13:42 | UukGoblin | dunno, depends if you want to be worried about ISO C++ 1998 compliance |
| 13:42 | LobsterMan | meh not really |
| 13:42 | UukGoblin | oh. |
| 13:42 | UukGoblin | are you using long long at all? |
| 13:42 | UukGoblin | I'd suggest using int64_t or something like it instead |
| 13:42 | LobsterMan | i dont know lol |
| 13:43 | tree | I suggest it too |
| 13:43 | LobsterMan | i'm just trying to compile boost at present |
| 13:43 | UukGoblin | oh, if you're not a developer then it's OK to ignore it |
| 13:43 | LobsterMan | lolwut |
| 13:43 | UukGoblin | oh yeah? |
| 13:44 | LobsterMan | i like to think of myself as a novice developer :P |
| 13:44 | UukGoblin | s/a/the/ |
| 13:44 | tree | LobsterMan: You develop novices? |
| 13:44 | LobsterMan | <_< |
| 13:44 | LobsterMan | stop twisting my words around! |
| 13:45 | LobsterMan | my goal at present is to build the gpu miner that puddinpop released the source to |
| 13:45 | LobsterMan | eventually to improve it ^_^ |
| 13:45 | UukGoblin | puddinpop released the source? |
| 13:45 | UukGoblin | did people chip BTCs in to pay him? |
| 13:45 | LobsterMan | yeah |
| 13:45 | UukGoblin | cool |
| 13:45 | LobsterMan | 10k or some absurd amount |
| 13:46 | UukGoblin | whoah. |
| 13:46 | UukGoblin | cool. |
| 13:46 | UukGoblin | lfm will say it's warm, but nvmd him. |
| 13:53 | tree | UukGoblin: jgarzik paid all 10,000btc for the source to become open sourced |
| 13:54 | LobsterMan | yeah im trying to build it right now, gonna make sure his ransom routine is gone then im going to release a public package |
| 13:55 | UukGoblin | tree, whoah, all by himself? :-O |
| 13:55 | UukGoblin | that's a lot of money... |
| 13:55 | ArtForz | not really |
| 13:56 | LobsterMan | ArtForz how many btc do you have? :P |
| 13:56 | ArtForz | right now? 26550 |
| 13:56 | LobsterMan | is that all from generating your own? |
| 13:57 | ArtForz | yup |
| 13:57 | LobsterMan | over how long a time period? |
| 13:57 | tree | UukGoblin: Of course |
| 13:57 | ArtForz | a bit over 9 weeks |
| 13:57 | tree | ;bcsell 26550btc total |
| 13:57 | bitbot | tree: Total amount for BTC26550 is $1528.04151025 |
| 13:58 | ArtForz | I generated a lot more, sold off about 2/3 |
| 13:59 | LobsterMan | so you've made a good few grand USD off this? |
| 13:59 | tree | Is it possible I can buy some friendly treants with Bitcoins? |
| 13:59 | ArtForz | so far, yup |
| 13:59 | LobsterMan | not bad :P |
| 13:59 | tree | Shweet! |
| 13:59 | tree | How many are left? |
| 14:00 | LobsterMan | treants, that's from.....warcraft3 isnt it? |
| 14:01 | tree | O_O |
| 14:01 | tree | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ent |
| 14:01 | LobsterMan | http://dota-addiction.blogspot.com/2009/05/rooftrellen-treant-protector.html |
| 14:01 | LobsterMan | :P |
| 14:02 | AAA_awright | Also a computer term for "tree-like" |
| 14:03 | tree | http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1797062&cid=33676382 may garnish some attention for Bitcoin.. Maybe |
| 14:03 | MacRohard | people still read /. ? ;) |
| 14:03 | LobsterMan | i do..... |
| 14:04 | MacRohard | i do when i'm reall bored and have read every other news site i read |
| 14:04 | tree | MacRohard: I think it's fairly obvious to recognize the answer to that question simply by revieing the large list of comments |
| 14:04 | tree | revieing == re virgin interactive entertainmenting |
| 14:12 | UukGoblin | hmm, is there a way to donate BTC to 'the network', reliably? |
| 14:13 | UukGoblin | say I made a transaction for 20 BTC with 20 BTC fee, to a dummy address |
| 14:13 | UukGoblin | that would then theoretically give the 20 BTC to the next person who generates a block |
| 14:13 | UukGoblin | BUT |
| 14:13 | UukGoblin | WHAT IF |
| 14:14 | UukGoblin | I found a block myself, with only my 20 BTC transaction in it |
| 14:14 | UukGoblin | so that the network would think I donated the money to the network, where in fact I merely given them to myself |
| 14:14 | tree | Best way to donate to the network reliably is by sending to address 1Gn26uRqEWYEgsMruEE3aRg6jRPDhm75Um |
| 14:14 | gavinandresen | That's easy; just stop generating blocks for ten minutes or so. |
| 14:15 | UukGoblin | I mean, I want it to be visible to every node that this donation was made (with some cryptographically signed message to show it's coming from me) |
| 14:15 | UukGoblin | I'd want to use it for something like captcha for creating an account |
| 14:15 | UukGoblin | but instead of solving captcha, you pay a certain amount of BTCs |
| 14:16 | UukGoblin | once you've paid and a system/website/game acknowledges it, you get your account |
| 14:16 | gavinandresen | ... and you want the payment to be to "the network"... |
| 14:17 | UukGoblin | yeah, in some undefined sense |
| 14:17 | UukGoblin | not to anyone in particular, basically, but to show that you've actually spent some money in order to get an account |
| 14:18 | gavinandresen | How bit a payment you thinking? Just a couple of bit-cents? |
| 14:18 | UukGoblin | depends |
| 14:18 | UukGoblin | but rather small |
| 14:18 | UukGoblin | it's to stop spam effectively |
| 14:18 | gavinandresen | And can you generate a new BTC address every time? |
| 14:19 | UukGoblin | hm, ok, let me explain my idea more clearly: I'm thinking of a p2p mmorpg scenario. Creating a character shouldn't be too easy, so I think the easiest way is to make it cost money. But because the game is supposed to be decentralized, there's no-one to pay the money to. |
| 14:20 | UukGoblin | perhaps it could be sent to some players who've gained enough experience or whatever. |
| 14:20 | gavinandresen | A two-hop solution would probably work-- they send to a BTC address you give them, then that is, in turn, spent with a big transaction fee. |
| 14:20 | gavinandresen | (but you'd have to be left with at least a bit-penny paid to ... somebody...) |
| 14:20 | UukGoblin | hmm, but then you'd have to trust the p2p mmo client to do the job properly... |
| 14:21 | UukGoblin | I mean, consider someone paying a transaction with 100% of it going as a transaction fee, to whatever address he wants |
| 14:21 | gavinandresen | Ah, right, you're trying to be completely decentralized... |
| 14:21 | gavinandresen | But you can use the bitcoin network itself as a central authority. Hmm. |
| 14:21 | UukGoblin | that'd almost work fine, except for people who'd want to cheat and generate the block for themselves |
| 14:22 | gavinandresen | Encouraging people to try to generate blocks is not a bad thing! |
| 14:22 | UukGoblin | and then the p2p mmo could verify the transaction by just checking the latest bitcoin block, seeing a transaction for the right amount and with a correct message in it |
| 14:22 | gavinandresen | ... and the cheaters would only succeed rarely, so that's probably OK. |
| 14:22 | UukGoblin | well, there is that. |
| 14:22 | UukGoblin | well actually yeah |
| 14:23 | UukGoblin | they might steal from the p2p mmo, but they will contribute towards bitcoin network instead |
| 14:23 | UukGoblin | goal achieved. |
| 14:25 | tree | http://is.gd/fp7f1 |
| 14:26 | UukGoblin | y...eah, something like that |
| 14:27 | UukGoblin | so... another question is... can you send a transaction with a message that the whole network could see, not just the intended recipient? |
| 14:27 | UukGoblin | how are these messages stored, are they encrypted with the recipient's public key? |
| 14:35 | LobsterMan | ./boost/math/policies/error_handling.hpp: In function 'T boost::math::policies::detail::raise_evaluation_error(const char*, const char* |
| 14:35 | LobsterMan | oh lawd |
| 14:35 | LobsterMan | it really doesnt like that long long |
| 14:35 | UukGoblin | pastie the whole error message and the bit of code affected if you can plz |
| 14:36 | UukGoblin | (to pastie.org or somethin') |
| 14:36 | LobsterMan | it's just compile time warnings |
| 14:36 | LobsterMan | boost is still chugging along |
| 14:36 | LobsterMan | been going for about 2 hours now |
| 14:36 | LobsterMan | lol |
| 14:37 | gavinandresen | UUkGoblin: no, standard transactions cannot contain messages. |
| 14:38 | LobsterMan | if you send to an ip it can |
| 14:38 | gavinandresen | LobsterMan: no, the message isn't stored in the transaction if you send to IP (it is stored directly in the recipient's wallet) |
| 14:38 | LobsterMan | but it wont even let you send a message unless you send to ip |
| 14:39 | UukGoblin | sendtoaddress <bitcoinaddress> <amount> [comment] [comment-to] |
| 14:39 | UukGoblin | so what's that 'comment' about? |
| 14:39 | LobsterMan | it greys out the message box if you try to send to btc wallet address |
| 14:39 | LobsterMan | try it... |
| 14:39 | UukGoblin | and what about 'non-standard' transactions? |
| 14:40 | LobsterMan | i dunno but it will not allow you to send a message when sending to a btc address |
| 14:40 | LobsterMan | only when sending to an up |
| 14:40 | LobsterMan | ip |
| 14:40 | LobsterMan | * |
| 14:40 | gavinandresen | UukGoblin: there are three standard transactions: a coin-generation transaction, and two variations on "send to a bitcoin address" (one's used by the send-to-ip function) |
| 14:41 | gavinandresen | None of them have messages in them, just addresses/signatures and amounts. |
| 14:41 | gavinandresen | RE: what does sendtoaddress ... [comment] [comment-to] do: I'd have to look at the code, but I think it just adds the comment to the SENDING side's wallet. |
| 14:41 | UukGoblin | right... |
| 14:42 | UukGoblin | I thought I read about it somewhere... |
| 14:42 | UukGoblin | probably the current implementation doesn't allow it, but I think I read that you could add arbitrary data to a transaction |
| 14:42 | en | UukGoblin: May I have op plese? |
| 14:43 | en | You can then call me op en |
| 14:43 | UukGoblin | en, you may not (at least not from me) |
| 14:43 | gavinandresen | UukGoblin: if you patch your bitcoin, you can create all sorts of wacky transactions. There's a little expression evaluation language built-in to transactions... |
| 14:44 | gavinandresen | UukGoblin: but, as of a couple of patches ago, you'll have a hard time getting the rest of the network to put those weird transactions in blocks. |
| 14:44 | UukGoblin | ah yeah I vaguely recall someone asking about that change on the forum |
| 14:45 | UukGoblin | at that time when I read it (pre-0.3.10), I think the standard charge was 0.01BTC per 1kb of data |
| 14:45 | gavinandresen | UukGoblin: so getting back to the problem you want to solve: you want to be able to verify that a transaction on the network was generated by a particular somebody... |
| 14:46 | UukGoblin | yes. |
| 14:47 | UukGoblin | if I can get arbitrary data into a transaction, that'd simply be someone's signature (using a private key) for instance of the last block's sha256sum. |
| 14:47 | ArtForz | well, a extra push(some_data); pop; shouldnt be a problem |
| 14:47 | UukGoblin | and then he could prove that it's him by signing further packets with his private key |
| 14:48 | UukGoblin | (also, well, I think it'd be fairly easy to convince satoshi to include such transactions in new versions if we had a mmorpg ;->) |
| 14:48 | gavinandresen | There's already a public/private key implicit in a transaction, so seems like you should be able to come up with a protocol so "they" prove that they have the private key corresponding to transaction XYZ |
| 14:48 | UukGoblin | it'd only create more incentive towards generating blocks |
| 14:49 | UukGoblin | gavinandresen, ah, see... that... |
| 14:49 | UukGoblin | gavinandresen, that might be even simplier! |
| 14:49 | UukGoblin | is your wallet's public key made public? |
| 14:49 | gavinandresen | No, just the base58(Hash160()) of it |
| 14:50 | gavinandresen | ... but part of the protocol could be "send me the public key corresponding to BTC address BLAH |
| 14:50 | UukGoblin | "could be" == "probably is"? |
| 14:50 | UukGoblin | or "could be" == "could probably be made to be"? |
| 15:01 | LobsterMan | ;target |
| 15:01 | bitbot | target is http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=target |
| 15:01 | LobsterMan | ;nr |
| 15:01 | bitbot | LobsterMan: CurrentBlockCount( 81,531 blocks ) CurrentDifficulty( 917.8309374400 ) NextDifficultyAt( 82,656 blocks ) NextDifficultyIn( 1,125 blocks ) |
| 15:01 | LobsterMan | can you determine the current target? |
| 15:01 | UukGoblin | http://theymos.ath.cx:64150/q/hextarget |
| 15:03 | UukGoblin | LobsterMan, if you mathematically derive a formula using difficulty (and reference target which is 00000000ffff0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000), you can calculate it yourself |
| 15:07 | jgarzik | Changes to transaction fees: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=994.msg13829#msg13829 |
| 15:07 | bitbot | Always pay transaction fee? : satoshi: I implemented this change in SVN rev 157. The reason I previously made it so high was to allow very large transactions without hitting the transaction fee. The threshold was around 26,000 BTC for transactions made of 50 BTC generated coins. Even though it was 100 times easier to generate back then, only a few people ever enco... |
| 15:09 | UukGoblin | jgarzik, oooh |
| 15:09 | UukGoblin | jgarzik, before that takes place, I'd like to have an option to transfer money directly between wallets, thus encurring no fee |
| 15:10 | jgarzik | UukGoblin: you won't hit it unless you are doing a large transaction, comprised of many smaller generated transactions |
| 15:10 | UukGoblin | fair enough |
| 15:10 | ArtForz | of course you don't *have* to pay a fee |
| 15:10 | UukGoblin | I got confused by the 'Always pay transaction fee' topic, sorry |
| 15:12 | jgarzik | ArtForz: you do if the tx is large enough. and "large enough" size just got lowered in SVN r157. |
| 15:12 | UukGoblin | it might be worth noting though, that before any serious transaction fees are required, there should really be an option to transfer money directly between two wallets |
| 15:13 | rnd_ | I thought bitcoin generation happened when a hash with a certain leading zero bits was found? Or is that what is meant by 'hash must be lower than the current target'? Lower numerically? |
| 15:13 | ArtForz | eexcept theres miners miners that don't require any fee except for the 0.01 for < 0.01 outputs |
| 15:14 | jgarzik | ArtForz: I'm pretty sure the "large transaction" rule has been in the code for quite a while |
| 15:14 | UukGoblin | :-) |
| 15:14 | jgarzik | ArtForz: obviously SVN r157 is new, so $SIZE change has not trickled out to the majority yet |
| 15:14 | UukGoblin | but ArtForz, owning a fair portion of the network, can choose not to upgrade ;-) |
| 15:15 | jgarzik | as long as he owns > 50%, that works |
| 15:15 | ArtForz | nope, anything >0% works |
| 15:15 | ArtForz | just takes longer for the Tx to get into a block |
| 15:16 | jgarzik | if the majority don't accept it, it will never make it into a block |
| 15:16 | ArtForz | even if it doesn't have enough fees normal clients still passon the TX, they just don't include it in blocks |
| 15:16 | jgarzik | yeah |
| 15:17 | UukGoblin | jgarzik, majority don't have to accept it... just one node needs to accept it in its block |
| 15:17 | ArtForz | so if theres a single client that doesn't require a TX fee, and that client finds a block, that tx is in a valid block |
| 15:17 | UukGoblin | I seriously doubt that clients will reject a block because of it having too low a transaction fee... |
| 15:17 | ArtForz | exactly |
| 15:17 | ArtForz | other clients dont check if "enough" fees were included in a valid block |
| 15:18 | ArtForz | why would they? asit rouns counter to the idea that miners can set their own min fees in the future |
| 15:19 | UukGoblin | exactly |
| 15:20 | UukGoblin | a funny situation could arise though... if someone makes a large transaction and decides to wait longer and not to pay a fee... and that 'longer' turns out to be way too long for him to be acceptable... he can't get the money back anymore, can he? he can be stuck waiting a century before his transaction gets accepted ;-) |
| 15:20 | ArtForz | actually he can |
| 15:21 | jgarzik | refundtransaction |
| 15:21 | ArtForz | theres special code for handling updating still-not-in-blockchain transactions |
| 15:21 | UukGoblin | oh, is that what this new feature is for? |
| 15:21 | UukGoblin | coooool |
| 15:21 | ArtForz | has been for a long while |
| 15:21 | UukGoblin | damn, satoshi has really thought of everything, hasn't he? |
| 15:23 | ArtForz | check main.cpp Transaction::AcceptToMemoryPool around the part // Allow replacing with a newer version of the same transaction |
| 15:24 | ArtForz | except it got disabled... wtf |
| 15:25 | ArtForz | got disabled in r140 ?!? |
| 15:25 | UukGoblin | just like that? |
| 15:26 | ArtForz | yea |
| 15:26 | ArtForz | commit log just says block index checking on load, extra redundant checks, misc refactoring |
| 15:27 | UukGoblin | I'm sure it's implemented somewhere else then... |
| 15:27 | ArtForz | doesn't look like it, added code is |
| 15:27 | ArtForz | // Disable replacement feature for now |
| 15:28 | UukGoblin | huh |
| 15:28 | ArtForz | ... yeah |
| 15:28 | UukGoblin | perhaps a bug was discovered? |
| 15:28 | UukGoblin | weird, but I have to go now, see you folks later |
| 15:29 | ArtForz | or more likely it's disabled as half of the feature is curently unimplemented (normal client can never create such a update transaction |
| 15:31 | ArtForz | if it werent disabled the requirements would be quite simple, TX has to have the same inputs as the old TX and it has to be newer |
| 15:33 | ArtForz | so you could change a bog TX like (loads of inputs) -> (all to X) to (same inputs) -> ((all-fee) to self)(leftover fee) |
| 15:47 | necrodearia | What is a reliable way to determine the current value in USD of Bitcoins? Mt. Gox? Bitcoin Market? Bitcoin Exchange? BitcoinFX? BitLex? Other? |
| 15:47 | ArtForz | yes |
| 15:47 | necrodearia | heh |
| 15:48 | necrodearia | So http://bitcoin2cash.com/ 200 bitcoins == USD$1? |
| 15:48 | yebyen | reliable? |
| 15:48 | yebyen | i'm sure he will send it |
| 15:48 | necrodearia | hehe |
| 15:49 | necrodearia | Perhaps "reliable" is correct word then. =/ |
| 15:49 | necrodearia | Perhaps "reliable" is not correct word then. =/ |
| 15:50 | yebyen | what can you mean |
| 15:50 | yebyen | the exchange rate is correct if you can make the exchange |
| 15:50 | yebyen | if someone withdraws their bid/ask before you get the chance, it was incorrect |
| 15:51 | yebyen | all of the exchange sites pretty much work differently |
| 15:51 | necrodearia | mm |
| 16:27 | LobsterMan | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eY_iWeNffZg |
| 16:52 | Dybbuk | yebyen: It's probably safe to assume you can get about $0.06 per BTC at the moment. |
| 16:53 | yebyen | so for $1==200btc, necrodearia would have been getting ripped off |
| 16:53 | necrodearia | lies! |
| 16:54 | necrodearia | wait, nevermind |
| 16:54 | Dybbuk | I don't know. If I got 200BTC for $1, I'd be pretty happy. |
| 16:54 | bitbot | My bot is crazy. I think I will replace it with a new one sometime soon. |
| 16:55 | yebyen | i won't be happy until i have monkeys with typewriters who accept phony BTC as payment to work on my craps table |
| 16:55 | yebyen | i'm generating a lot of phony BTC |
| 16:55 | yebyen | i'd say about 50 every 10 minutes |
| 16:56 | Dybbuk | Arg, I wish I had money in my LibertyReserve account. |
| 16:56 | Dybbuk | I wish getting money into my LR account wasn't such a HUGE PAIN IN THE ASS. |
| 16:56 | yebyen | what's LR all about? |
| 16:57 | Dybbuk | yebyen: I think it's about being annoying. |
| 16:57 | yebyen | i mean, is it exactly the same thing as paypal? |
| 16:57 | Dybbuk | But there is always such a disparity between LR prices and PayPal prices that you can make some good money. |
| 16:57 | yebyen | do they take routing numbers and account numbers |
| 16:57 | Dybbuk | yebyen: It's different. I don't know enough about them to sound really smart about the whole thing, but it seems they are trying to be some kind of detached digital currency thing. |
| 16:58 | yebyen | does it use cpu cycles to counter artificial inflation? |
| 16:58 | yebyen | or cryptography |
| 16:59 | MacRohard | the problem with LR is it's a pain in the ass to get some |
| 16:59 | yebyen | or nothing quite so fancy and decentralized |
| 16:59 | MacRohard | infact, probably the easiest way to get it would be to buy bitcoins using paypal and then sell them for LR ;) |
| 17:00 | yebyen | on bitcoinmarket? |
| 17:00 | MacRohard | yea |
| 17:01 | theymos | Someone should evangelize Bitcoin on the JonDonym forum. (They're like a paid version of Tor.) |
| 17:02 | theymos | Maybe someone who can speak German, since their community/admins seems to be mostly German. |
| 17:03 | yebyen | i can evangelize bitcoin while trying to convince them that i speak german |
| 17:03 | yebyen | but it won't take long before they realize i don't know german |
| 17:16 | Dybbuk | MacRohard: Yes, that's true, but then you *lose* money. :) |
| 18:34 | theymos | I updated the wiki with the new transaction fee rates: http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?do=show&id=transaction_fee (Compare revisions to see what the change was.) |
| 21:51 | lfm | theymos those new rates only apply to 0.3.13 and later? is 0.3.13 release imminent then? |
| 22:53 | LobsterMan | what new rates? |
| 22:56 | theymos | lfm: The new rates are in SVN. They'll be in 0.3.13. |
| 22:57 | theymos | LobsterMan: The transaction fee rates were changed. |
| 22:57 | LobsterMan | significantly? |
| 22:58 | theymos | LobsterMan: No. See http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?do=revisions&id=transaction_fee (Compare the latest two revisions.) |
| 23:00 | LobsterMan | i still dont really understand it |
| 23:00 | LobsterMan | is there a "fee" charged whenver coins are sent? |
| 23:02 | theymos | LobsterMan: Not usually, but it can sometimes happen. |
| 23:02 | LobsterMan | "For transactions which draw coins from many bitcoin addresses and therefore have a large data size, a small transaction fee is charged. " |
| 23:02 | LobsterMan | how would it draw coins from multiple addresses? |
| 23:04 | theymos | LobsterMan: When you send bitcoins, they're taken from previous transactions that were sent to you. Usually you have to combine several previous transactions. If you need to bundle hundreds of previous transactions to get the total that you want, a fee will be charged. |
| 23:48 | Keefe | ;estimate |
| 23:48 | bitbot | Keefe: LastDiff(4d 23:42:54 ago) ExpBlocks(718) ActualBlocks(976) TrgNewDiffDate(2010/10/03 02:04:07 GMT) EstNewDiffDate(2010/09/29 09:20:55 GMT) EstNewDiff(1247.63648321) |